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clime'; and had some customs very barbarous; yet the government of the Incaes had many parts of humanity and civility. They had reduced the nations from the adoration of a multitude of idols and fancies, to the adoration of the sun. And, as I remember, the Book of Wisdom noteth degrees of idolatry; making that of worshipping petty and vile idols more gross than simply the worshipping of the creature. And some of the prophets, as I take it, do the like, in the metaphor of more ugly and bestial fornication. The Peruvians also (under the Incaes) had magnificent temples of their superstition; they had strict and regular justice; they bare great faith and obedience to their kings; they proceeded in a kind of martial justice with their enemies, offering them their law, as better for their own good, before they drew their sword. And much like was the state of Mexico, being an elective monarchy. As for those people of the east (Goa, Calacute, Malacca) they were a fine and dainty people; frugal and yet elegant, though not militar. So that if things be rightly weighed, the empire of the Turks may be truly affirmed to be more barbarous than any of these. A cruel tyranny, bathed in the blood of their emperors upon every succession; a heap of vassals and slaves; no nobles, no gentlemen, no freemen, no inheritance of land, no stirp of ancient families'; a people that is without natural affection, and, as the Scripture saith, that regardeth not the desires of women: and without piety or care towards their children: a nation without morality, without letters, arts, or sciences; that can scarce measure an acre of land, or an hour of the day: base and sluttish in buildings, diets, and the like; and in a word, a very reproach of human society. And yet this nation hath made the garden of the world a wilderness; for that, as it is truly said concerning the Turks, where Ottoman's horse sets his foot, people will come up very thin.

POLLIO. Yet in the midst of your invective (Martius) do the Turks this right, as to remember that they are no idolaters: for if, as you say, there be a difference between worshipping a base idol and the sun, there is a much greater difference between worshipping a creature and the Creator. For the Turks do acknowledge God the Father, creator of heaven and earth,

1 temperatura fortasse climatis hoc postulante.

2 ac si jus fœcialium novissent.

electivâ, non hæreditariâ.

nullæ stirpes antiquæ. I have followed the reading of the MS. here. The printed copy has "no stirp or ancient families."

being the first person in the Trinity, though they deny the

rest.

At which speech when Martius made some pause, Zebedeus replied with a countenance of great reprehension and severity:

ZEBEDEUS. We must take heed (Pollio) that we fall not at unawares into the heresy of Manuel Comnenus, Emperor of Græcia, who affirmed that Mahomet's God was the true God: which opinion was not only rejected and condemned by the synod, but imputed to the Emperor as extreme madness'; being reproached to him also by the Bishop of Thessalonica, in those bitter and strange words as are not to be named.

MARTIUS. I confess that it is my opinion, that a war upon the Turk is more worthy than upon any other gentiles, infidels, or savages, that either have been or now are, both in point of religion and in point of honour; though facility and hope of success mought (perhaps) invite some other choice. But before I proceed, both myself would be glad to take some breath; and I shall frankly desire that some of your lordships would take your turn to speak, that can do it better. But chiefly, for that I see here some that are excellent interpreters of the divine law, though in several ways; and that I have reason to distrust mine own judgment, both as weak in itself, and as that which may be overborne by my zeal and affection to this cause; I think it were an error to speak further, till I may see some sound foundation laid of the lawfulness of the action, by them that are better versed in that argument.

EUPOLIS. I am glad (Martius) to see in a person of your profession so great moderation, in that you are not transported, in an action that warms the blood and is appearing holy, to blanch or take for admitted the point of lawfulness. And because methinks this conference prospers, if your lordships will give me leave, I will make some motion touching the distribution of it into parts.

Unto which when they all assented, Eupolis said:

EUPOLIS. I think it would not sort amiss, if Zebedæus would be pleased to handle the question, Whether a war for the propagation of the Christian faith, without other cause of hostility, be lawful or no, and in what cases? I confess also, I would be glad to go a little further; and to hear it spoken to 1 veluti insaniæ species quædam,

concerning the lawfulness, not only permissively, but whether it be not obligatory to Christian princes and states to design it; which part, if it please Gamaliel to undertake, the point of the lawfulness taken simply will be complete. Yet there resteth the comparative: that is, it being granted that it is either lawful or binding, yet whether other things be not to be preferred before it; as extirpation of heretics, reconcilements of schisms, pursuit of lawful temporal rights and quarrels, and the like; and how far this enterprise ought either to wait upon these other matters, or to be mingled with them, or to pass by them and give law to them as inferior unto itself? And because this is a great part, and Eusebius hath yet said nothing, we will by way of mulct or pain, if your lordships think good, lay it upon him. All this while, I doubt much that Pollio, who hath a sharp wit of discovery towards what is solid and real and what is specious and airy, will esteem all this but impossibilities, and eagles in the clouds: and therefore we shall all intreat him to crush this argument with his best forces: that by the light we shall take from him, we may either cast it away, if it be found but a bladder, or discharge it of so much as is vain and not sperable. And because I confess I myself am not of that opinion, (although it be an hard encounter to deal with Pollio) yet I shall do my best to prove the enterprise possible, and to shew how all impediments may be either removed or overcomen. And then it will be fit for Martius (if we do not desert it before) to resume his further discourse, as well for the persuasive, as for the consult touching the means, preparations, and all that may conduce unto the enterprise. But this is but my wish, your lordships will put it into better order.

They all not only allowed the distribution, but accepted the parts: but because the day was spent, they agreed to defer it till the next morning. Only Pollio said:

POLLIO. You take me right (Eupolis); for I am of opinion, that except you could bray Christendom in a mortar, and mould it into a new paste, there is no possibility of an Holy War. And I was ever of opinion, that the Philosopher's Stone, and an Holy War, were but the rendez-vous of cracked brains, that wore their feather in their head instead of their hat. Nevertheless believe me of courtesy, that if you five shall be of another mind, especially after you have heard what I can say, I shall be ready to certify

with Hippocrates, that Athens' is mad and Democritus is only sober. And lest you should take me for altogether adverse, I will frankly contribute to the business now at first. Ye, no doubt, will amongst you devise and discourse many solemn matters: but do as I shall tell you. This Pope is decrepit, and the bell goeth for him. Take order, that when he is dead, there be chosen a Pope of fresh years, between fifty and threescore; and see that he take the name of Urban, because a Pope of that name did first institute the cruzada, and (as with an holy trumpet) did stir up the voyage for the Holy Land.

EUPOLIS. You say well; but be, I pray you, a little more serious in this conference.

The next day the same persons met, as they had appointed; and after they were set, and that there had passed some sporting speeches from Pollio, how the war was already begun, for that (he said) he had dreamt of nothing but Janizaries and Tartars and Sultans all the night long, Martius said:

MARTIUS. The distribution of this conference, which was made by Eupolis yesternight, and was by us approved, seemeth to me perfect, save in one point; and that is, not in the number, but in the placing of the parts. For it is so disposed, that Pollio and Eupolis shall debate the possibility or impossibility of the action, before I shall deduce the particulars of the means and manner by which it is to be achieved. Now I have often observed in deliberations, that the entering near hand into the manner of performance and execution of that which is under deliberation hath quite overturned the opinion formerly conceived of the possibility or impossibility. So that things that at the first show seemed possible, by ripping up the performance of them have been convicted of impossibility; and things that on the other side have showed impossible, by the declaration of the means to effect them, as by a back light, have appeared possible, the way thorough them being discerned. This I speak, not to alter the order, but only to desire Pollio and Eupolis not to speak peremptorily or conclusively touching the point of possibility, till they have heard me deduce the means of the execution: and that done, to reserve themselves at liberty

1 So both the printed copy and the MSS. The Latin translation has Athenienses. It ought to be Abdera.

2 The remainder of this speech is not in the MS. Eupolis's answer is illegible from the fading of the ink. The words, I think, are "at your pleasure."

for a reply, after they had before them, as it were, a model of the enterprise.

This grave and solid advertisement and caution of Martius was much commended by them all; whereupon Eupolis said:

EUPOLIS. Since Martius hath begun to refine that which was yesternight resolved, I may the better have leave (especially in the mending of a proposition which was mine own) to remember an omission, which is more than a misplacing. For I doubt we ought to have added or inserted into the point of lawfulness, the question how far an Holy War is to be pursued, whether to displanting and extermination of people? And again, whether to enforce a new belief, and to vindicate or punish infidelity; or only to subject the countries and people; and so by the temporal sword to open a door for the spiritual sword to enter, by persuasion, instruction, and such means as are proper for souls and consciences? But it may be, neither is this necessary to be made a part by itself; for that Zebedæus, in his wisdom, will fall into it as an incident to the point of lawfulness, which cannot be handled without limitations and distinctions.

much pre

and we are It is there

ZEBEDEUS. You encourage me (Eupolis), in that I perceive how in your judgment (which I do so much esteem) I ought to take that course which of myself I was purposed to do. For as Martius noted well that it is but a loose thing to speak of possibilities without the particular designs; so is it to speak of lawfulness without the particular cases. I will therefore first of all distinguish the cases; though you shall give me leave in the handling of them not to sever them with too ciseness; for both it would cause needless length, not now in arts or methods, but in a conference. fore first to be put to question in general, (as Eupolis propounded it,) whether it be lawful for Christian princes or states to make an invasive war, only and simply for the propagation of the faith, without other cause of hostility, or circumstance that may provoke and induce the war? Secondly, whether, it being made part of the case that the countries were once Christian and members of the Church and where the golden candlesticks did stand, though now they be utterly alienated and no Christians left, it be not lawful to make a war to restore them to the Church, as an ancient patrimony of Christ?

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