with some authority in the details of what is going on. And if your governing bodies are properly constituted, I believe that is the true method of dealing with and meeting the case. But remember that while we give the governing body the power and right to deal with all these matters, we do most distinctly reserve to the head-master that which he has in such schools as Harrow and Rugby, but that which he has not at Eton and Winchester-a complete control over the details of the schools-the details of the classes, arranging the hours of classes, and so forth; and that we also provide for a complete consultation between him and the governing bodies. I have dwelt rather at length upon that point, and I have picked it out because it appears to me to lie at the root of all the difficulties suggested. We have made recommendations which are, of course, open to a good deal of criticism. It is perfectly possible to say that the schemes of instruction which we have recommended are such as it is impossible to carry into effect. I do not myself think they are impossible to carry into effect. I think myself that, with proper methods of teaching, economy of time, a proper number of masters, and with good-will and cooperation on the part of the governing bodies and the masters, generally speaking our recommendations may very well be carried into effect without overtasking the boys, or sacrificing anything that is important. But at the same time we are perfectly conscious that these are matters in which persons practically engaged must decide-we are conscious that what is practicable in one school will not be practicable in another; and that there may be differences in the mode in which our recommendations will be carried into effect. What we hope to secure and what I hope Parliament will enable us to secure is a thoroughly good constitution of the governing bodies, and the placing in the hands of those bodies such powers as are necessary. And then I believe there will be harmony between them and the masters, and that the masters acting with zeal and energy, will be able to do a good deal in that way. There was another point which was touched upon to which I will only allude, because I know it has created some uneasiness among head-masters-I mean what is called the school council, in which the assistant-masters are to take some share with the head-masters in discussing the affairs of the school. Canon Melville was perfectly right in pointing out that the inquiry, though it had reference to all the nine schools, and through them to public education generally in England, was to a very great extent suggested by the complaints which had been made, and questions that had been raised in regard to one in particular-that is to say in regard to Eton. Now in Eton one of the points we found particularly complained of, especially by the assistant-masters, was that they were not consulted as they thought they ought to be in the matter of the direction of the school. And when we know what Eton is-that it is not only one great school but a conglomeration of what you may almost call separate schools under one head,— when you consider that parents send their children not so much to Eton as to Mr. A. and Mr. B. because they have confidence in Mr. A. and Mr. B. and that if they could not get Mr. A. and Mr. B. they would not send their children to Eton at all, but to Rugby or somewhere else-I think it is fair to allow Mr. A. and Mr. B. to consult with the head-master, and to offer him their advice. I think that fair: and not only is it fair, but by the testimony of other schools it is really necessary. It is done at Shrewsbury, and Dr. Kennedy says it is essential there, and that he could not go on without it. He calls the masters together once a week. It is done at Harrow, where Mr. Butler has his conferences with the masters. It is done at Rugby almost invariably; and I believe there have been times within the last two or three head-masters of Rugby, when the system was dropped, and it was found that the school did not work so well when the masters were not called together. All we proposed was that in some way or another that want which has been felt and remedied in other schools should be remedied at Eton. I admit that the term school council gives a somewhat false notion of what is really meant. It would be a question for the governing body, acting as men of the world, and knowing the feelings of men, so to manage the arrangements of the school as to put the relations between the head-master and the assistants upon such a footing as that the assistants will really be consulted on matters on which they can give proper advice, and yet not be allowed

to interfere with the proper authority of the head-master. If we have put the thing a little more formally than it should be put by calling it a school council, I would say, Don't be alarmed; it won't go into an Act of Parliament. It is merely a suggestion for the governing bodies to consider. What will be called for in one place may not be called for in another. We merely wish that there should be some manner of consulting the assistant-masters, and that is more desirable at Eton than in smaller schools." I must apologise for not going into other points which I intended to refer to, but I think these are the most important points.

Dr. HODGSON: The papers that have been read in connection with the report of the Commissioners suggest so many subjects for discussion that it would bo very unadvisable to attempt them all to-day, even though we had more time. I rise for the purpose of entering my protest, briefly but earnestly, against the principle involved in the remarks of Mr. Myers in reference to the number of honours gained by pupils from Eton at the Universities during a number of years. No one is so ignorant or so foolish as to pretend that Eton is incapable of producing good scholars, or that Eton has not produced a very considerable number of good scholars; but to offer such a list as we have heard to-day, seems to me -not intentionally but virtually-to withdraw the attention of the public from the great question at issue, which is, not whether this or that school is capable of turning out a certain number of gentlemanly or well-drilled young men? but "What is the state of mind, of attainment, of knowledge, and of disposition, in which the great mass of the boys are found who are subjected to the discipline and education of that school?" Now I think all present will agree with me that it would be a most extraordinary thing if a school like Eton, with an income of £14,000 a-year, and a large staff of high-paid, and no doubt, for their peculiar office, very well qualified masters, should fail to turn out a very considerable number of good pupils. The principle involved in the remarks to which I am referring is, I think, a faulty one; and I was reminded, in the course of the remarks which contained this principle, of "Jerome Paturol" and his account of a school in France which was conducted on this principle, that during the vacation the proprietor of the school visited other schools in the country for the purpose of ascertaining whether any particularly clever boy could be found, especially if his parents were poor. If he found such a boy he addressed himself to the parents and offered to give their child instruction if he were allowed to make his own experiments in teaching the boy. He got a number of boys on these terms, and they were all collected in the central school, and there they were subjected to a different discipline in each case, one boy being kept close at the study of Greek verse, another at Greek prose, a third at Latin prose, and a fourth at Latin verse. At the end of the period of study the works of these boys were all paraded in their several departments as an evidence of the general condition of the school; and the immense progress which one boy had made in one particu lar subject, was not unnaturally but falsely looked upon as if it were an evidence of the general position of the school. There is another point which involves the same principle as that which I have remarked upon, and it is one which is frequently referred to in conversation. Nothing is more frequent than to hear it said, as an evidence of the great utility of our public schools, that they have produced such and such great men-Peel, Gladstone, and others. Now what I have said already applies also to that mode of reasoning. It would be exceedingly extraordinary if a large number of public schools, constituted as these are, and having the very flower of the youth of our country to operate upon, should fail to turn out good men. But the fact that these men were educated there is by no means a proof that the principles and discipline in operation have produced these men. It is simply an evidence of the system of discipline having failed to prevent these men becoming eminent. I do not mean to say that those institutions have not contributed to make these men eminent; but I say that what I have now stated is all that the logical argument compels one to admit. I would beg leave to quote here an anecdote of Mr. Charles Landseer in illustration of my remarks. This artist was one day engaged in a discussion, and his antagonist in the argument enumerated a great many men whom the public schools had produred, and among others he mentioned Byron, and said, "Byron was a Harrow boy."

"Yes," said Landseer, "that is true; but Burns was a ploughboy." That anecdote illustrates my principle, that there can be no school, even the school of the plough or farm service, which can prevent genius from developing itself-can prevent great men from being formed.

Rev. T. MYERS: I did not wish to infer that Eton was better than any other school; but I just wished to show that Eton pupils were not worse than those from other schools, because it is open to every public school to send their best men, and all I said was this, that when Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, and all England sent their men up to the competition, Eton won over and over again.

Sir JOHN PAKINGTON, M.P.: My principal object in rising is to take this first public opportunity which I happen to have had of expressing the extreme satisfaction with which I, as one of the public, have read the Report of the Commissioners on Public School Education. My honourable friend, Sir Stafford Northcote, who has just addressed this meeting, was one of those Commissioners. He has very naturally alluded, in what fell from him, to two points which were touched upon in the able paper of my reverend friend, Canon Melville; and also in the paper by Dr. Kennedy. The first of those questions was whether the guidance and arrangement of the studies of the school should be in the hands of the governing body, or should be exclusively in the hands of the head-master. I must say that I have hitherto inclined very much to the views which were expressed by both of those reverend gentlemen, and thought that perhaps the wiser policy in those great schools would be cordially to select an able master, place entire confidence in that master, let him guide the studies of the school, and if he failed in his duties, exchange him for another. But in candour I must admit that the explanation given by my honourable friend, Sir Stafford Northcote, to-day has very much shaken me in that opinion. Upon the other point to which Sir Stafford Northcote alluded, namely, whether it is desirable that the assistantmasters of a school should be authorised to act as a sort of recognised council to advise the head-master-speaking, of course, subject to receiving any further information upon this point-I incline very much to the opinion that it would be unwise to give them any such authority. I think it would be most desirable that the head-master of a great school should from time to time consult with those with whom he acts; but I should very much doubt the wisdom of making it compulsory upon him to do so. But I will not pursue these points further; for really the main object for which I rose was to give utterance to the anxious desire I feel that that Report should be fully studied throughout England; that the gentlemen of England should make themselves acquainted with its spirit and recommendations. I will not pledge myself to approve in detail of all these recommendations; especially as to the governing bodies; but I will say that that Report contains recommendations well worthy of attention; and I do most earnestly hope that it will produce most valuable fruit. None of the public schools of England, and more especially that great public school of Eton, can afford to disregard the contents of that book. We have all constantly heard it boasted, "Well, if Eton does not produce any great number of first-rate scholars, at all events it makes gentlemen, and it impresses upon the minds of the young gentry of England a love of those manly habits which constitute the national character." I must say that I never attached the slightest weight to either of these statements. I believe that the sons of English gentlemen will grow up English gentlemen, send them to what school you will. And as to the question of manly habits, and the AngloSaxon character, of which we are all proud in this nation, it has no more to do with Eton than with any parish school in the country. There is not a parish in England where you will not find cricket; there is not a village green where it is not played; there is not a market town where you have not a cricket club. And as to the habits and character of Englishmen, I believe they have much more to do with the moulding of the habits and the character of our schoolboys, than the habits of our schoolboys have to do with moulding the character of Englishmen. But even were it otherwise-even were it true that the boys by going to Eton acquire these manly habits, and become addicted to these manly sports-is there any reasonable ground in the world why, conjointly with these advantages, you should not combine a system which may teach them that which every gentleman ought to know? I can imagine no satisfactory reason that can be given in G G

answer to that question. After having carefully perused the evidence contained in the valuable Report of the Commissioners I must boldly avow my opinion that these public schools of England have not been hitherto what, considering all the circumstances of the case, they ought to have been-what they ought to be-and what I earnestly hope, now that public attention has been fully directed to the subject, we may reasonably expect them to be made.

Mr. DENT, M.P.: I have read the evidence given before the Commissioners on Public Schools, with a good deal of sorrow, and I may say also with a good deal of hope. I read it with sorrow because it showed that Eton was not now in that position in the world of scholarship which it had in former days. In the list of honours read by the Rev. Thomas Myers as having been gained by Etonians at the universities, I find that of the classical honours gained during the last fourteen years twenty-seven have been gained by collegers and eight have been gained by oppidans. It is twenty years since I left Eton, and I must say that that was not the state of things in that day, because I think that at that time the oppidans carried off their full share of honours. To what are we to attribute that change? I think that it is partly to be attributed to the foundation having been thrown open to public competition. It was formerly considered to some extent discreditable to be a colleger, but that has been changed since the system of public competition was instituted. I acknowledge, with all the other speakers, that I do not think Eton has done her duty in preparing the youth of England for their positions in life. When you look to the names of the men of middle age in the present day, a feeling of regret arises in the mind that the young men of Eton are not now holding their own in the way their predecessors did; and I attribute this very much to what I may call the family cliqueism and family system of Eton. There seems to be a feeling there that nobody but an Etonian should be an Etonian master; and the governor of the college and the greater proportion of the masters are bound by family alliances. In fact they seem to imagine that nobody knows how to teach at Eton except a particular set. I think an improvement on that state of things commenced with the last head-master, and hoped it would be carried on by Mr. Bolstan; but I was greatly disappointed in his evidence. Then there is the immense extent of Eton-it has overgrown itself and it is overwhelmed with the work which is required for the education of so large a number of boys. The masters cannot devote themselves to individual scholars, and that is the great reason why scholarship is deficient at Eton. But I must protest against the idea being entertained that there has been any falling off in the moral tone of Eton. I don't believe a word of the statements which have been made to the effect that the moral tone of Eton has fallen off of late years. I believe its moral tone was never better, perhaps was never so good as it is now; and I could point to evidence laid before the Commissioners, in support of the belief. With respect to the scholarship of Eton, however, I think there is a lamentable deficiency on the part of the oppidans. I think the Royal Commis sioners have thrown out most valuable suggestions in their Report, especially with regard to the governing body of the college. I cannot but think that the introduction of men of the world, conversant with the wants and feelings of the outer world, to give advice to the masters, will be attended with valuable results.

Rev. Canon TREVOR: I cannot allow this debate to conclude without adverting to a topic which has been very imperfectly treated in the papers which were read and which has not been referred to in the discussion. Our discussion has turned almost entirely upon the nature of the education, and the qualifications of the masters in the different public schools. As I never enjoyed the privilege of being a public school boy, or of taking any part in the work of tuition, I have not felt myself qualified to offer any opinion upon that subject; but it has struck me very forcibly as I listened to the valuable observations made, that one point seems to be taken for granted which seems to be open to considerable question. It was, perhaps, not unnaturally thought by the gentlemen who have spoken, that schools were founded for the purpose of teaching; but I doubt very seriously whether learning is the object of the larger portion of the parents in sending their children to public schools. What strikes me is that those who go to public schools with the intention and desire to acquire classical literature, do acquire it, and acquire it soundly; but that the large number of children who are sent to the school

with no such object in view, whose parents have no desire that they should acquire learning, and who feel within themselves no incentives to do so-that those pass through the school and carry from it just what their parents expected, and paid their money to obtain. I am quite ready to admit that that was not the reason for which public schools were founded. I have found a very great difference, in the course of my life, between those educated at public schools, and those who have not had that privilege. I have been, both abroad and at home, thrown into company with great numbers of gentlemen of various professions; and I must say that, with few exceptions, I have uniformly found that those gentlemen in the army and civil service of India, and in the civil and public services at home, who had enjoyed the benefit of an education in the public schools, have been in a very marked manner distinguished, notwithstanding their origin, for gentlemanly feeling and bearing, from those who have not had the same advantages. I do not doubt that in private schools literature is often highly cultivated, but I have not the slightest doubt that a very considerable amount of that which distinguishes the character of English gentlemen is imparted in the public schools under the present system, however defective it may be. And I cannot accept, therefore, the dictum which I have heard two or three times repeated, notwithstanding I believe that it is found in evidence in the Report of the Royal Commissioners, that the larger portion of the boys leave Eton, or any other public school, totally ignorant of all an English gentleman ought to know. If they do, I want to know where it is that the English gentlemen acquire what they ought to know; because in my intercourse with them I do not find them thus ignorant. I do not find the magistracy, the officers of the army, or the gentlemen in the public services ignorant-I ought rather to say I find the very reverse. I find them remarkably well acquainted, as a general rulo, with those things which an English gentleman is expected to know. And if they don't acquire their learning at the public schools to which they are sent, and at the universities, to which the public schools direct them, then it does seem to me that there is some celestial influence that descends upon an English gentleman to qualify him in a very remarkable manner for the station which he occupies in the world. But the subject to which I wish to draw the attention of the meeting, and which has been omitted from the Report of the Commissioners very much, and from the discussion at this meeting, is the amount of payment required from the parents in the public schools under the present system. I think a large portion of the difficulty we are speaking of dwells there. I think that in exacting the large sums which are now necessary to maintain a boy at a public school, you have been transferring the benefit of the endowments from the class for whom they were intended, and by whom they would have been exercised for the purpose of acquiring literary knowledge-you have been transferring them from the class of poor, earnest, striving scholars, to the class of the wealthy and noble inhabitants of this country. And if the great endowed schools are to be monopolised, as under the present system they are monopolised, and as, for anything I can see, under the recommendations of the Commissioners they would still continue, perhaps in a larger degree, to be monopolised-if the great foundation schools are to become the property of the wealthy classes-then I do not believe you will be able, by any system of education, to make them turn out boys better acquainted with classical literature than they do at present, because the great incentive to the study of the dead languages-the great incentive to proficiency in literature-the motive to overcome the drudgery and hard work, without which it is impossible to have a sound knowledge either of mathematics or classics-the great incentive is that a man is to get his living by it. Undoubtedly there are exceptions to the rule. There are noblemen and gentlemen, spurred by that innate spirit and love of literature and science which is inherent in great minds, who do, for the very love and pleasure of the scholarship, devote themselves to the work and conquer the difficulties; but as a general rule you will not get large proportions of school children cultivating earnestly knowledge, and encountering the difficulties which are necessary to its attainment, unless they have behind them the great impulse of necessity; unless they belong to those classes with whom it is a necessity to be well and soundly educated, because through their literary proficiency they hope to advance their fortunes in life, and it may be to