In, is raifed only by a Parcel of Merchants, and difcontented People, who only want to turn out the Minifters.

No, Sir, that is not the Cafe, for it is not the Ministers, but their Measures, that have kindled this Flame: Facts will always fpeak for themselves, and Merchants will always know their own Interest.

But when the continued Depredations on our Merchants, the repeated Infults on the Honour of the Nation, the Cruelties and Barbarities exercifed on our Sailors,

our Country-Men thrown into Dungeons, and chain'd like Slaves; I fay, when this is confider'd, and no more Profpect of Redrefs from this Convention than a Piece of walte Paper, no Wonder, that the Heart of every Englishman fhould be inflam'd.

I beg Pardon, Sir, for having taken up A fo much of your Time, but fhall be against this Address to his Majesty, because I look on this Convention as Difadvantageous to the Merchants, Difhonourable to the King, and Ignominious to the Nation.

DEBATES in the SENATE of LILLIPUT. (Continued from Page 302.)

Hurgo Ghewor's Speech concluded. I HAVE the

on the lowest Bench in this Houfe, and I am fure I have not the Honour to have the fmalleft Share in his Majesty's Coun fels; yet, my Lords, that royal Personage has no more Share in them than I have. This I have mention'd, to fhew your Lordships how cautious we ought to be in giving the fmalleft Degree of Sanction to fuch Meafures, and to fuch Counteis. But, my Lords, were not this the Cafe, it is very evident that the Conduct of the Miniftry since our last meeting in this Place, as it appears even from the Speech we have now heard, makes it highly improper for us to agree to the Motion made by the Noble Nardac.

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If the Sum ftipulated by this Conventi on is no more than what it is generally given out to be, it bears no proportion to the Injuries our Merchants have fuftain'd. D If the Proceedings of the Plenipotentiaries are to be on the foot of Treaties now in Force, I will be bold to fay, my Lords, that no Differences can fubfift betwixt Iberia and us, but thofe Plenepotentiarics may create, for the Treaties betwixt us are ftrong, clear, and exprefs, impoffible, my Lords, to be mended by any fubfequent Negotiation. So that, my Lords, this Convention is probably, like other late Mafter-pieces of our negotiating Policy, only an Expedient to gain Time; and tho' we cannot tell what its particular Terms are, yet we may venture to tell what they are not. No Lord here, who has not feen this Convention, as I own I have not, can fay that it is fuch as puts the future Navigation of this Kingdom on a proper Foot to free our Merchants from all Apprehenfions of being infulted, preyed upon, and murdered by their inju rious Neighbours. He cannot affirm that G the firft, or any Stipulation in it is anfwerable to the first Refolution that this

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House came to laft Year; I mean an Exemption from all Stop, or Search, on any Account what fuever, to thofe Vefleis who are in a lawful Way of Trade upon the open Seas. Neither can he tell us, my Lords, that the Sum ftipulated is ado quate to what our Merchants have fuffered by the Iberian Depredations; nor that an ample Satis action is made for the Iafults and Indignities done to his Majefty and the Nation: And if Lords are in the dark as to all thefe Points, on what can they found their Approbation of the Addre's propos'd by the nobic Narduc?

On the other hand, my Lords, any Lord, the' he has not feen the Convention, yet if he has heard the Specch just· now deliver'd from the Throne, may venture to fay what this Convention is not. He may venture to fay, that it is not a definitive Treaty, whereby the Rights of Navigation and Commerce, which this Houfe found the Nation was juftly intitled to, (See Vol. VIII. p. 566.) are fecured against all future Violations, and put beyond the Pollibility of ever afterwards being infring'd in Time of Peace My Lords, if it is not fuch a definitive Treaty, if it is not to be attended with thefe Confequences, your Lordships Advice which was laid before his Majesty laft Year, has been neglected, it has been defpifed. If this is the Cafe, my Lords, as in all appearance it is, this is not a Time for us to come to the Refolution propofed by, the noble Lord who made the Motion; this is not a Time for us to make Compliments to the Crown, which may be the more dangerous, as they may milead his Majelly into the Belief that this Measure is agreeable to the Sense of the People in general, becaufe agreeable to the Senfe of this Horfe. This I fay, my Lords, would be a fatal Compliment, it would tend to give his Majefty fuch fayourable_Impreffions of the Abilities of TI

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his Ministers, as again to intrust them with the Management of thefe great Affairs, upon which the Peace and Welfare of this Kingdom depend; both which have already fuffered fo greatly in their Hands. Such a Proceeding might poffefs his Majesty, and all the World, with an Opinion that we are weak, inconfiftent, and inconfiderate in our Refolutions; by our coming in one Sethon to Refolutions, and prefenting them to his Majetty as the Senfe of this Houle; and next Seffion ap proving of Measures, in which not only no Regard has been had to thefe Refolu B tions, but that are abfolutely inconfiftent with them.

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But, my Lords, tho' I am entirely against our inferting any Words in our Addrefs that may give his Majefty and the Nation Reafoa to think that we are fatisfied with the Measures purfued fince laft Seffion, yet I am not at all against any Expreffions, however ftrong, that may evidence our Zeal for his Majelly's Service, and our Affection to his Perfon. But thele, give me Leave to fay, are best confulted by giving his Majefty to under itand, from our Silence, as to that Part of the Speech that concerns the Convention, D that we are by no means fatisfied with fuch a Meature, that we are refolv'd not to be fatisfied with any thing less than an ample and an exprefs Renunciation from Beria, of all her Claims upon the Liberty f our Navigation, of all her Claims to a y Part of our Territories, and of her Pretences to a Sovereignty in the Columbian Seas.

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I am tar, my Lords, from entering now upon any Difquifition into the Terms which this Convention may contain; I have already prote's'd my elf entirely ig norant of them, and I wish they may prove in the Event honourable to the Na- F tion. The only Confideration that now lies before us is, how far, by what ap pears from the Speech we have now heard, we have any Grounds whereon we can found an Approbation of the Measures taken by the Miniltry, with regard to Iberia, fince the laft Seffion. And tho, my Lords, I have given my Opinion as to that Matter; yet I have chiefly confined my Argumen's to the Inconfiftency which appears betwixt the Refolutions now read, and our prefent Situation with Iberia, fo far as it can be gathered from his Majefty's Speech.

I fhill now take the Liberty to trouble your Lordships with f me other Arguments, arifing from other Circumstances.

The Senate, towards the Clofe of lat Selion, thought proper to ftrengthen

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his Majefty's Hands, by voting a considerable Addition to the Sea Forces. In con-fequence of this Refolution, Preparations were made, the Trade of the Nation was laid under very great Disadvantages and Incumbrances, and the Nation itfeif put to the Expence of upwards of five hundred thoufand Sprugs. Al this, my Lids, was cheerfully born; our Seamen were glad of an Opportunity to revenge their Lajuries, our Merchants were pleased with the Profpect of repairing their Loffes, and the Nation in general was fond of an Occafion to vindicate her Honour. The leaft, my Lords, that could have been expected from fuch mighty Preparations, from fuch happy Difpolitions, was, Reparation of paft, and a Security from fu ture Injuries; or, if we tail'd in that, to have known the w rft, to have fallen like Men with our Swords in our Hands,.and no longer to have cont nued in this poli tical Purgatory betwixt Peace and War, which gives us every thing to fear which leaves us nothing to hope. But, my Lords, instead of being put out of Uncertainty, we are put into greater Uncertainty than ever; b th by the Silence of his Majefty with regard to the Terms of this important Negotiation, and by the doubtiul Event that may attend the Counfels of his Miniitry. Thus, my L rds, in effect, we are certain of nothing but of our being in a worfe Situation than ever; tho' uncertain as to the particular Circumftances attending that Situation. We are certain that the Public is five hundred thousand Sprugs the poorer than it was at the End of laft Seffion, and, at the fame time, has not reap'd one Advantage from fo vaft an Expence. These, my Lords, I humbly conceive, are not very inviting Contiderations to induce us to return Thanks for the Speech from the Thro e in the Terms propofed by the noble Lord.

I fhall trouble your L refhips only with a few more Obfervations. As Affairs have been managed betwixt us and Iberia, all the War that we have kad has been but a Paper War; and, my Lords, who has had the Advantage in that War is no hard Matter to determine. But, my Lords, had the War been managed with Swords instead of Pens, and had we spoken from the Mouths of our Cannon initead of our Ambafladors, I dare boldly to pronounce the Advantage would have been on the Hother Side. Not that we are deftitute of as good Heads as they have in Iberia; but, my Lords, it has not been our good Fortune to have them imployed in this Negotiation. We have not yet, my Lords,

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had any Reason to think that the Heads of our Minifters are equal to the Hearts of our People: Therefore, my Lords, give me Leave to fay, we have trufted too long to the Abilities of the first, and too much difregarded the Senfe of the laft. This Confideration, my Lords, gives me great Room to apprehend, that, if we fhould proceed further in the way of Negotiation, the Match is by no means equal; we have ever yet been Lofers at that Game, and I think it is B now high time for us to alter our Play; tho' I doubt, my Lords, our Affairs are in fuch a Way, that it is beyond the Reach of the ableft Heads to work out our Deliverance, any other Way than by a Change of Measures, and en-c deavouring to regain by War what we have loft by Negotiation. For these Reafons, my Lords, I am for leaving out all the Part of the Addrefs pr posed by the noble Lord after the words, Vigilance for their real Security and Prefervation. [See p. 302 H.]

The Nardac, Secretary of State, whom we have often mention'd before, spoke next to the following Effect.

My LORDS,

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HE Terms of the Addrefs, proposed by the noble Lord who fpoke firft, are drawn up with fuch unprecedented Caution, that it is furprizing to me that it fhould meet with any Oppofition. At the same time, my Lords, the Reasons which that noble Lord made ufe of to fupport the Addrefs he moved for, were fo ftrong and fo powerful, that it is equally furprizing that the noble Lord who fpoke laft thould not either own his being convinced with th ir Force, or attempt to give G them fome Anfwer. I am fure, my Lords, if they could have admitted of any Anfwer, the noble Lord was very capable of giving it; and, I believe, none of your Lordships have any Reafon to doubt of his being willing.

I fhall however, my Lords, endeavour to answer thofe Parts of my noble Lord's Speech who fpoke laft, that are founded on Arguments drawn from,

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what his Lordfhip feems principally to infift on, the Inconfiftency of our refolving on an Addrefs in the propoled, by the noble Lord who spoke firft, with the Refolutions we came to in the laft Seffion. I fhal then, my Lords, fhew the Confiftency of the Addrefs propofed with these Resolutions: And, lastly, endeavour to obviate the Objections, that were rather hinted at than infifted on, by my noble Lord who propofed the Amendment.

The Refolutions, my Lords, that you have heard read, were the Retult of a very candid and impartial Examination of the Treaties upon which our Rights of Navigation and Commerce in Columbia are founded; and, through the whole Course of the Debates that happened laft Seffion on this Subject, it was always understood that this Houle repoled a full Confidence in his Majefty; that the Confirmation of these Rights by Iberia was to be the Groundwork of all our future, as, give me leave to fay, they had been of our past Negotiations with that Court. At the fame time, my Lords, it was understocd that the Houfe was of opinion that his Majelly was to do all he could to get thele Rights confirm'd by Iberia, before he proceeded to the Extremities to warmly infifted on by my nobie Lord. The firft Refolution is upon a Fact, that we have no Reason to believe has been either neglected or misunderstood by the Ministry I am not at 1.berty to inform your Lordships of the particular Manner in which this is guarded by the Convention, nor would it be regular in me to do it: I fhall therefore confine what I have to fay on that Head to what his Majefty has been pleafed to hint in his Speech from the Throne; and endeavour to fhew from thence the Propriety of the Terms in which the propofed Addrefs is conceived. This, my Lords, I hope will be thought a fair and an equitable Way of reasoning, fince in all Deliberations we are oblig'd to act according to the Evidence that appears: And the only regular Evidence we can yet have of its being proper or improper for us to agree to the

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Addrefs without the Amendment, muft arife from that Part of his Majefty's Speech which regards this Meafure.

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fore, my Lords, I cannot fee the leaft Foundation for inferring any Inconfiftency betwixt this Convention, fo far as it appears from his Majefty's Speech, and your Lordship's Refolations of last Seffion.

My noble Lord who spoke last, reafon'd all along upon a Suppofition, that this Houfe understood that his Majefty was to declare War against Iberia im I shall now, my Lords, take the limediately upon prefenting our laft Ad-berty to confider the Words of the Addrefs. But it was quite otherwife; for drefs propofed by the noble Nardac who if a Treaty could be concluded upon fpoke firit. Your Lordships there dethe Foot of what this contain'd, all clare, that you offer bis Majefty your the Ends which this Houfe propofed by Thanks for acquainting you from the prefenting that Addrefs were gained. Throne that a Convention is concluded, How does it appear, my Lords, that B and likewife for his Royal Care in mathis was not the principal Confideration king ufe of the Confidence repojed in him that enter'd into the Negotiations for with no other View but the general and concludig this Convention? Does it lafting Benefit of the Kingdom. You appear from his Ma efty's Speech? No, then proceed, my Lords, to fay; that my Lord, his Majefty has been pleafed Reparation for paft Injuries and Loffes, to inform us that the Convention is for C and effectual Security for the future, fettling all Matters in Difpute, in fuch a founded in Juftice, and warranted by Manner, as may for the future prevent Treaties, have been the great Views of and remove all new Caufes and Pre- his Majefty and the Senate in this National tences of Complaint,by a ftrict Obfervance and important Affair. Can any thing of our mutual Treaties, and a juft Regard be more unexceptionable? Can any to the Rights and "rivileges belonging to thing be more congruous with the Senfe each other. If we are to reafon on the which this Houfe has always entertain'd Fitnefs of this Meafure, my Lords, of this Matter, than thefe Expreflions? from thefe Words, there never was any There is imply'd in them no blind ApMeasure pursued more confiftent with, probation of a Meafure, you know and more confequential of, the Senfe of nothing of, and which precludes any this Houfe. We never intended to your Lordships from making what ObE jections you please to the Convention, when it may come before you. If your Lordships fhould then find that Reparation for paft Injuries, and Security for the future, are not fufficiently provided against by that Convention, your Lordships are fo far from being tyed up from objecting to it, that thefe very Expreffions are fo many Rules which you have already laid down for judging of its Merits, and by them you give the Nation and the Miniftry to understand, that you are refolved to approve or difapprove of this Meafure, in proportion as you fhall find it agreeable to, or inconfiftent with thele Sentiments.

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dictate to his Majefty the Steps that were proper to be taken on the Commencement of this Negotiation; it was enough, it answered all our Purposes, if our Rights were put on fuch a Foot as to render it impoffible for the Iberi ans to have any Pretext for continuing their Depredations and Violences. If the definitive Treaty which is to follow upon this Convention has regard to, and is founded on the Treaties now in Force betwixt the two Crowns, as is ftrongly implyed by his Majefty's Words, it is as much as the most fanguine Lord in this House can, with any Colour of Reason, infist on. Your Lordships firft Refolution, which has been read by your Clerk, is founded on an Obfervance of thofe Treaties, and the Obfervance of thofe Treaties is the only true Security which we can have for our Commerce and Navigation. There

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I have heard it laid down as a very good Rule, whereby one can judge of the Fitness or Unfitnefs of any PropofiHtion: To invert the Meaning of the Words, and then to compare the real with the inverted Senfe, and if the lat

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ter is highly abfurd, it is a ftrong Pre- ture. This, my Lords, as appears from fumption in favour of the former. If his Majefty's Speech, is as fully prothat Rule were to be applyed in this vided for as it is poffible to be in any Cafe, how would the laft Sentence A&t that is not definitive. Plenipotenwhich I repeated from the noble Nar- tiaries are to be appointed, the Plenidac's Motion ftand? Why, my Lords, potentiaries are in a limited Time to we should then declare that Reparation finish their Negotiation; and the for paft Injuries, and Security for the Groundwork of this Negotiation is to future, were not to be founded on Juftice, be a ftri&t Obfervance of mutual Treaand warranted by Treaties; We fhould ties, and the juft Regard to the Rights then declare that Reparation for paft and Privileges belonging to the two Injuries, and Security for the future, contracting Powers. Thus, my Lords, founded on Justice, and warranted by the Foundation for fuch a definitive Treaties, were not the great Views of B Treaty, as everyMan in Lilliput ought his Majelly and of this Houfe. What to wish for, is laid; and, at the fame a String of monstrous Abfurdities fhould time, we have an Earneft of the Sinwe have in fuch Expreffions! cerity of Iberia, in finishing fuch Treaty, by her agreeing to pay the stipulated Sum to our Merchants. For my Lords, if no definitive Treaty is to follow upon this Convention, we have gained this vaft Advantage, that the Demands of our Merchants are fatisfied. Befides, my Lords, the allowing this very Satisfaction implies all that we can claim from any future I reaty. For D to what purpose is this Money paid? It is paid to fatisfy our Merchants for those Damages which they have fuftained in Violation of the Treaties fubfifting betwixt Lilliput and Iberia, and our Rights of Navigation. My Lords, if E the Iberian Court did not own that thefe Treaties have been violated, that thefe Rights have been infringed, we cannot fuppofe that he would have paid Damages for fuch a Violation. If the entertains any Hopes that our Plenipotentiaries may give them up, this is the most likely Way in the World to difappoint her. She has now owned herfelf guilty, and gives us an Earnest of her Sincerity in concurring in fuch Measures as may prevent any future Injuries or Differences betwixt the two Nations. Thus, my Lords, I have endeavour'd to explain to your Lordfhips what the Convention is, as the noble Lord was pleased to explain what it is not; and, as I have all along kept in my Eye the Words of his Majesty's H Speech, I hope your Lordships will not find that I have exaggerated any of its Advantages.

My noble Lord, who spoke laft, was pleafed to find fault with this Conven tion because it is not a definitive Treaty. C Really, my Lords, I fhould have been as glad as any Lord in this Houfe if a definitive Treaty could have been brought about with Iberia before this Time: But, my Lords, whoever confiders the Complication of Demands on both Sides, the Multitude of intricate Facts that were to be examined into, and the various Pretentions to be adjusted, must be of Opinion that there is more done fince laft Seffion than could have reasonably been expected, especially as we had to do with Iberians, a People not at all famous for their Difpatch in Bufinefs; and, my Lords, tho' this is no definitive Treaty, yet it lays a very folid and ample Foundation for fuch a Treaty.

ture.

In any definitive Treaty that should have been, or is to be made, two Things are principally to be regarded: The airft is, Reparation for pait Injuries; the next, Security for the fuAs the first immediately regards our fuffering Merchants, his Majefty, like the true Father of his People, chofe to have their Interefts taken care of even previous to thofe of his own Crown. In this refpect, my Lords, the Convention is a definitive Treaty; fince, by it, the Account betwixt Iberia and Lilliput is adjufted, and the Sum to be paid to our Merchants, ftipulated. The other Part, which a definitive Treaty muft confift of, is Security for the fu

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