PROCEEDINGS, &c. in the Senate of LILLIPUT.

449

good Caufes for altering his Opinion. So that, my Lords, 'till fuch Time as my Mind is free from the molt diftant Sulpicion that fech a Paper may exift, I can never form a juft Opinion, myfelf, nor can I communicate to, or receive from, your Lordships any Light that may be neceflary for that Purpole. Your Lordships are bett Judges in what Manner fuch an Information ought to be communicated to the Loufe. What I have fuggled to your Lordships is, as humbly conceive, to reafonable in itself, that I dare lay the noble Nardac, and those who have had the Honour to be in the Secret of this ranfaction, will be extreamly glad to have this Opportunity of vindicating their own Characters, by letting this Houfe and all the World fee that they have entered into no fcandalous, no clandeftine Measures, and that, while they confulted the Peace of the Empire, they had a Regard to its Honour and Intereft.

The Hurgo Sholmlug spike next as fol lors

teft or Declaration fhould be made good: Nay, my Lords, I have known Inflances when it has been particularly express'd in ficha Proteft, that if the Terms requir'd were not fulfill'd, the A whole Proceeding fhould be invalid. My Lords, it is with the greatet be, luctance imaginable that I prefume. to fuggett that this poflibly may be the Cafe at prefent; I have too good an Opinion of our Ministry's Zeal and A bilities to affert that it is: But give me Leave to fay, my Lords, that Iberia has behav'd with fo much Infolence and Injuftice, that we can fuppofe nothing fo infolent and unjust which the may Oar Minifters, my not be guilty of. Lords, with the pureft Intentions in C the World, may be impofed upon; they may not forefee the Consequences of fuch a Step. My Lords, I have known it to have had very bad Confequences, and therefore I am the more jealous of every Tranfaction where take Place. If, D any fuch Proteft may my Lords, no fuch Step has been taken in this Tranfaction, as I am very far from affirming that there has, it will be of the greatell Confequence to the Government that thofe without Doors be made cafy upon that Head; for, my Lords, tho' I believe no Lord here E thinks that any fuch Mealure is gone into, yet I can affure your Lordships that fuch an Opinion, I cannot conceive how it arofe, is entertained without Doors. It will likewife be of the greatest Confequence to your Lord fhips in the fudgment you are to malce upon this Convention, if you are informed, by Authority, that no fuch Protest, or Declaration, on the Part of 1 beria, exifts. For my own Part, my Lords, I frankly own to your Lordfhips, that I am not free to give my Sentiment on any one Part of a Tranf action of this Kind without feeing the Whole of the Tranfaction. For, my Lords, the judgment which any Lord of this Houle may form of it upon feeing the Convention alone, may be very juft and right; but if the fame Lord confiders it as clogg'd with a Protest affecting the Whole, he may fee very

G

My LORDS,

Tis with the greateft Satisfaction

that I obferve in the noble Lord, who spoke laft, fo much Candour, and fuch a Deûre to be impartially inform'd of the true State of Affairs be twixt us and Iberia. The noble Lord's Sentiments will have great Weight with me, as I believe they will with every Lord in this Houfe. The noble Lord has been fo much engaged in for reign Affairs, and difcharged every Character he filed with fo much Ca pacity, that he must be extreamly well vered in Things of that Nature. Bur, my Lords, Imult beg Leave to put your Lordships, and the noble Lord, în mind, that the Forms of this Houle are not to be difpenfed with on this, or any other, Occafion. Your Lordships, I dare fay, are fufficiently fentible how much they contribute to the Continaance of our Power; and, my Lords, we have as much Reafon to preferve them upon the prefent Occafion, as upon any Occafion I can recollest fince) Kkk

have had the Honour to fit among your Lordships.

ferve to give your Lordships the necef fary Information; but in the mean Time I fhall beg Leave to take it for granted, that the Papers now deliver'd in are all that are neceffary for my formA ing a right Judgment of this Traníaction; and while I do that, my Prefumption is certainly on the most probable Side. But were I of any other Sentiments, I don't think that what the noble Lord has let fall ought to be any Reafon why your Lordships fhould expect any immediate and direct Answer. If the noble Lord has a Motion to make, I fhall hear it with great Pleasure, and it may be now debated; but I am humbly of Opinion, that if his Lordship does not reduce what he has to fay to a regular Motion, we ought to proceed upon the Business of the Day.

B

D

If I am so happy as to apprehend the noble Lord's Meaning who spoke laft, his Lordship defires that the Houfe may be inform'd if there are any other Papers that have been figned by our Minifters here, or at the Court of Iberia, relating to the Convention, befides thofe deliver'd to the Houfe. My Lords, I think the noble Lord's Queftion extreamly improper to be anfwer'd here. His Lordship cannot be properly inform'd but by one, who has the Honour to be one of his Majefty's Council; and we cannot suppose that such a Perfon will divulge, even to this Houfe, a Secret which perhaps he is fworn to conceal. Your Lordships C may, indeed, addrefs his Majefty to know if all the Papers that have paffed betwixt us and Iberia are compre. hended in thofe that the noble Nardac has now deliver'd to the Houfe; but, my Lords, fuch an Addrefs would be quite unprecedented, and, give me leave to fay, unreasonable; for his Majesty would, no doubt, order the Secretary to inform the Houfe that they are not; and if your Lordships fhould infift on feeing them all, it would occafion a very needles Picce of Trouble and E Expence; for they have been fo many, that the very copying them over muit employ all the Clerks in the Secreta ries Office for fome Days, if not Weeks. For my own Part, I think I am able to form a Judgment of any Treaty, of any Convention, if that Treaty or Convention is laid before me. It is true, if the Terms of it fhould run fo far as to refer to a Paper I have never feen, it is abfolutely neceffary that I fhould fee that Paper; but if that is not the Cafe, I am to be determined by what I do fee, and will confider what is laid before me as the Whole of that Tranfaction. If, when your Lordships fhall come to confider this Convention, you fhall fee Reaton for fufpecting any fuch Management as the noble Nardac who spoke laft has hinted at, I fhall be very willing to concur with every Motion that may

The Hurgo Quadrert reply'd as follows:
My LORDS,

THEN I threw out my diftant

Surmifes with great Simplicity of Heart, I did not think that they would have occafioned fo long an Answer from the noble Lord who fpoke laft. What fell from me, my Lords, was, as I apprehended, fo evidently calculated for your Lordships better Information in this important Affair, that I did not think it would have met with the leaft Opposition. But, my Lords, from fome Things I F obferved in the noble Lord's Speech who spoke lait, my Sufpicions begin, to be a little confirmed. The noble Lord is pleafed to entertain a more favourable Opinion of me than I deferve, but I must beg his Lordthip's Pardon G when I fay that he has misapprehended my Meaning. I did not mean, my Lords, to make any Motion, nor fo much as to start any Difficulty; all I intended was to give the noble Nardac who deliver'd the Papers, or any other who has the Honour to be in his Ma

Hjefty's Councils, an Opportunity of undeceiving the Houfe with regard to a Report, that is now very current, and very prejudicial to his Majefty's

Intereits.

A

Interefts. I imagined, my Lords, that
every Lord, who is a Friend to the Mi-
niftry, would have been glad of fuch
an Opportunity to vindicate their Inte-
grity, and that the Ministers themselves
would have joyfully embraced it. But,
my Lords, instead of that, to my Sur-
prize, I find it objected that what I
hinted at was not according to Form,
and therefore that it ought to be disre-
regarded. My Lords, I did not intend
to make a formal Motion; I thought
it looked much better not to do it, be- B
cause what is done in Confequence of a
formal Motion carries an Air of Con-
ftraint along with it, and lays a Mini-
fter under an Obligation to comply;
whereas, when he readily and chear-

fwer to this; but if his Grace does, it will fave the Houfe a great deal of Time; and I am fo much convinced of his Grace's Honour and Integrity, that I, and every Lord, I believe, of the House, will be determined by what his Grace fhall fay on that Head. As to violating an Oath of Secrecy, my Lords, I think there is no Danger of that; for if there is any Paper fuch as I have mentioned, it must be soon known to all the World, and it is already known to a great many. It is no Tranfaction of his Majefty's Council, and the owning or difowning fuch a Thing can never affect his Grace as a Countellor.

fully takes the Hint, and vindicates C The Nardac Secretary Spoke next as

his own and the Nation's Honour, he removes at once all Sufpicion, and leaves a very favourable Impreffion of his own Conduct.

D

E

My LORDS,

YOUR

follows:

OUR Lordships must be fenfible what a Hardship I am laid under by being oblig'd to speak upon this Occafion. The noble Lord who spoke laft has put it upon me to answer a Queftion, which I conceive the noble Lord, as a Member of this Houfe, has noRight to ask, and I, as a Minister, am under no Obligation to anfwer. I thought that what was urg'd by the noble Lord who fits over against me, was fufficient to have prevailed upon the noble Lord who spoke last, to have pufh'd this Affair no farther. I have, by his Majefty's Order, laid before your Lordfhips the Convention, with its feparate F Articles and Ratifications. His Majefty's Intention in giving these Orders was, that your Lordships might thereby be enabled to form a right Judgment of this Tranfaction. If any other Papers had been requifite for this Purpofe, your Lordships need not doubt of his Majefly's Willingness to communicate them to the Houte. As no fuch, my Lords, have been communicated, your Lordships may be very well affur'd that thofe now given in are fufficient for all the Purposes mentioned by the noble Lord who spoke last.

I am as much for keeping to our Forms, my Lords, as the noble Lord who spoke laft, or any other Lord in this Houfe; but, my Lords, I am far from thinking them equally effential on all Occafions. The Papers that are now communicated to the House by the noble Nardac were not communicated in confequence of any Addrefs to his Majefly, and therefore, my Lords, the noble Nardac may regularly, without waiting for any fuch Addrefs, if his Grace pleafes, inform the Houfe, if any Papers relating to this Convention, befides thofe now given in, have been fubfcribed by our Miniftry, or by that of Spain. I do not mean, my Lords, thofe Papers that must have neceffarily preceded the figning the Convention, but thofe that may be immediately connected & with it: Papers, my Lords, upon the Validity of which this Convention is, perhaps, to ftand or fall. If any fuch exift, I humbly prefume none of your Lordships can doubt of their being abfolutely necessary to be laid before us.

I am very fenfible, my Lords, that we have no Right to require the noble Nardac to give a full and explicit An

G

H

But, my Lords, as the noble Lord feems to expect from me fome

more

A

more pofitive Declaration as to this
Matter, I am very willing to go as,
great a Length as is confiftent with the
Character I have the Honour to bear.
And, my Lords, give me Leave to af
fure your Lordships, that the Papers
now laid before you are the only Pa-
pers that have been fubfcribed by our
Minifters at the Court of Iberia relating
to the Conclufion of the Convention.
This, my Lords, I take upon me to
affirm to your Lordships, and I hope
this Anfwer will be fatisfactory to the
Hofe. If any other Paper was fign'd
by our Minifters on that Head, it has
not yet come to my Knowledge, nor I
believe of any Lord in the Houle, and C
I care venture to fay that they could
not have been fo long concealed.

The Hurro Quadrert spoke next to the
Allowing Purpose:

I

A LORDS,

B

which we are to reap by this Conven
tion. My Lords, I do not know what
this Convention is, I have heard it
both blamed and approved: But let its
Stipulations be never fo much in our
Favour, I, my Lords, will look upon
them as mere Grimace, uniefs the
whole of the Tranfaction be laid be-
fore your Lord hips.
I shall not
trouble your Lordships any further on
this Head. I hope i have fufficiently
explained to your Lordships my Mean-
ing; but I hope no Lord will be for
our entering into the Confideration of
this Convention, before he is certainly
informed of every material Circum-
ftance that has any Relation to it.

The Nardac Secretary made Answer as
follows:

I

My LORDS,

I be

Thought I had before fufficiently obviated all the Doubts that NoD ble Lord entertained upon this Occafion. I imagined, my Lords, that it was fufficient for the Satisfaction of the Houfe, if I declared, that the Papers given in were all the Papers that have been figned by our Minifters at the Court of Iberia relating to the E Conclufion of this Tranfaction. lieve it is pretty well understood that if our Minifters, either here or at that Court, have fign'd no other Paper, there is no other Paper that can af fect this Convention. If, my Lords, no other Paper can affect this Convention, but thofe now deliver'd in to your Lordships, I humbly conceive that your Lordships have all neceffary Lights towards judging aright of this Tran action.

Think the Houfe is very much obliged to the noble Nardac who fpoke laft: His Grace knows too. much of this ranfaction to be miflaken, and, for my own Part, I have no manner of Doubt that the Papers now given into the Houfe are all the Papers that were fign'd on the Part of our Ministry. My Lords, I never doubted of that; but I with the noble Nardac had, with the fame Frankness, declared if he knew of any Paper relating to, and immediately connected with this Convention, that was figa'd on the Part of Iberia, and tranfmittel F to our Court. If the noble Nardac will affirm, that he knows of no fuch Paper, my Doubts. my Lords, are at an End. But, my Lords, if his Grace fhall make any Difficulty to do this,

follows.

My LORDS,

I fhall immediately conclude that feme G The Hargo Quadrert's Reply was as fecret Measure, fome private Tranfaction, not fit to be communicated to the World, nor laid before your Lordthips, has been entered into. I fhall conclude, my Lords, that however follicitous we have been to procure from Iberia this Convention, yet we could not even have procured that, had we not made fome private Conceflions that deftroy all the feeming Advantages

H

Should not have again troubled your Lordships upon this Subject, were not forry to find that I have been fo unfortunate as not to explain myfelf clearly enough to be intelligible to the Noble Nardac. A Paper, my

Lords, tho' only fign'd by one of the

con

B

contracting Parties, in a Negociation of this Kind, may in certain Cafes, and attended with certain Circumstances, be as binding upon the Party not figning as if they had actually fign'd it. A I don't know, my Lords, if there is any fuch Paper relating to this Convention now exifting, far lefs do I know in what Terms it is conceiv'd, or in what Manner it was deliver'd. But whether there is, or is not, it is certainly reasonable that we fhould be acquainted with the Import of every Paper connected with this Tranfaction, or that those without Doors fhould be made eafy on that Head. The Doubt therefore, which with great Submiflion I want to be refolv'd in, is, whether any Paper relating to this Convention, and declaring it void, if the Terms contain'd in that Paper were not comply'd with, was at any time deliver'd by the Minifters of Iberia tỏ those of Lilliput ?

I

The Nardac Secretary anfer'd;
My LORDS,

Have nothing to add to what I

C

D

F

have already declar'd to your Lordthips, but that there was indeed a Pa-E per given to our Minifters by that of Iberia, relating to the Affairs of the S, Sea Company. This Paper, my Lords, relates to a private Tranfaction betwixt the Iberians and that Company; and I could never have imagined that it could have created fuch Apprehenfions in any Body as the noble Lord feems to exprefs. That Company, my Lords, have many Tranfactions with the Court of Iberia, and if fome Mifunderstanding fometimes happens. betwixt them, it is not at all to be G wonder'd at; but we can never fup. pofe that their private Tranfactions, and the Concerns of the Empire depend upon one another. The Iberian Minifters might, if they had pleased, have fent 50 Papers to our Minifters on that Head, but I never imagin'd that any Lord would have thought it material that thefe Papers fhould be communicated to this Houfe. The Paper, or

H

Proteft, or Déclaration, call it what
you please, that is now in Question,
pafs'd thro' my Hands, and was tome
Days ago tranfmitted to the Company.
If any of your Lordfhips are of opi-
nion hat it fhould be laid before the
House, I fhall very readily concur
with the Motion. My Lords, I will
go farther, I will undertake to have it
deliver'd to your Lordships as the Pa-
pers now given in have been, without
any Motion being made for that Pur-
pofe; tho', my Lords, I don't think it
at all material, whether it is laid be-
fore
your Lordships or not.

I

The Hurgo Quadrert then faid; My LORDS,

Now ftand up to make a Motion;

but I think it very proper to return my Acknowledgements to the noble Nardac, for conde cending fo readily to answer the Doubt I had propos'd. It was, my Lord, with the greatest Diffidence in the World, that I mention'd it to your Lordships; and, my Lords, it is not without a fecret Satisfaction, that I obferve there was at least a Foundation for my Sufpicions. Therefore, my Lords, as the noble Nardac has promis'd that the Paper in Question fhall be communicated to the Houfe, I humbly move; That the Convention, together with the feparate Articles, and the feveral Ratifications concluded betwixt their Lilliputian and Iberian Majefties, be read the third Day of the next Week.

The Hurgo Stordraff, Spoke next as fol

My LORDS,

IT

lows.

T is with a kind of Surprize that I have heard what paffed betwixt that noble Nardac and the noble Lord who spoke last. In the mean time it is no hard Matter to foresee that this Convention must employ a great deal of our Time. The noble Lord who spoke laft has fo penetrating a Head, his Intelligence is fo good, and he has been fo long ufed to Affairs

of