sonnet, which describes the condition of those who have become absolutely deaf, after having heard, perhaps, for a few years during childhood:

"They are like one who shuts his eyes to dream
Of some bright vista in his fading past;
And suddenly the faces that were lost
In long forgetfulness before him seem.
Th' uplifted brow, the love-lit eye whose beam
Could ever o'er his soul a radiance cast,
Numberless charms that long ago have ask't
The homage of his fresh young life's esteem:

For sometimes, from the silence that they bear,
Well up the tones that erst formed half their joys
A strain of music floats to the dull ear,
Or low, melodious murmur of a voice,

Till all the chords of harmony vibrant are
With consciousness of deeply slumb'ring pow'rs."

I quote from an article on the poetry of the deaf which I contributed to the "Annals" three years ago, Vol. XXIX, p. 204.

13,242. (Rev. W. B. Sleight.) How was he educated?-Upon the manual system. He received his college education with us. He was at the Hartford School previously. He was not a mute from birth, but became technically a deaf-mute, though retaining the power of speech, not having heard after his childhood, and all his education was carried on in schools for the deaf.

13,243. (Mr. Johnson.) At what age did he become deaf?—At the age of 10.

13,244. (Chairman.) Do the degrees which you give at your college bear comparison with those given in the universities of the country? They bear comparison with the other colleges of the country. An university degree is in advance of what we give, but the degree of Bachelor of Arts compares with the degrees given in the ordinary colleges of our country. With us the term college means an institution which is not quite up to the standard of what you would term your full university course. We have universities in America which give this full course quité equal to the universities here.

13,245. I was rather asking the question with regard to the universities?—There is just that distinction which I have mentioned.

13,246. I will ask you now about the condition of the deaf after they have left the ordinary schools of the country. You have told us, to a certain extent, with regard to their industrial training and the occupations which are pursued?-Yes, but I have not spoken as to how successful they are in after-life in any detail, or how they bear themselves in society in general. The 70th Report of the oldest institution in the United States, that of Hartford, issued this same year, 1886, gives a very valuable account, which I will not attempt to read at all in detail, of a very large number of their graduates about whom they have taken pains to collect information; and a glance at a list like this would show you the number of occupations pursued by the graduates of this school. There are 50 or 60 different occupations, and there are observations with reference to the wages which they earn.

13,247. Is it not a question with the deaf in the same way as it is with the blind?-It is not so serious with the deaf.

13,248. You do not find any difficulty, probably, any more than we do, in their getting employment? No, no serious difficulty. This report might come in as an appendix to show the comparison of the wages they earn and what they do; and the general statement can be made that the deaf, as a class, with education, are self-supporting. And I think it well, in connection with the statement, to call attention to this point which I have had occasion in one or two instances before Congressional Committees to lay some emphasis upon, and which is not generally appreciated; that is to say, when the condition of the uneducated deaf, their dependent condition, the small amounts that they earn, the limited intelligence

that they show in employments, and the cost of carrying them through the ordinary course of an average life, are taken on the one hand, and on the other the expense of educating the deaf in boarding schools at the public expense, paying for their sustenance as well as their education, then taking the period necessary to carry out this education, whether it be seven or eight years, when this calculation is entered into, it is found that the saving to the State in actual pounds, shillings, and pence, by educating them, is simply enormous. I will not stop to give figures. I have made the calculation, and I have presented it to the Congressional Committees; and, as a general observation, I may say that while it is perfectly conceded that it is an additional expense to educate the deaf in boarding schools, it is not generally understood that, even taking this addition into account, the saving to the State is enormous over what they would lose through the helpless and dependent condition in which the uneducated deaf are found during nearly the whole period of their lives. The question is often raised by those who have the levying of rates and assessing taxes. They say that it costs so much more to board these children, and that it should be considered a matter of pure charity. But we do not so look at it in America.

13,249. It is a matter of interest you would say?— It is a matter of pure selfish interest that we take these deaf people out of the condition of ignorant dependence, and, by the expenditure of an amount of money easily calculated, we turn them over into the other side, the producers and self-supporters, and gainers of wealth to the community; and the gain to the State is simply enormous by the change effected by education. And there is one other consideration in connection with that, which has had some prominence given to it in our own country. It has been urged, on the one hand, that the deaf could be educated in day-schools, and the expense of their education much diminished. On the other hand, it has been also urged that the parents of the deaf in the community have the right to their having the best education, and, if the best education can only be obtained in boarding schools, then it is right that they should have that education in boarding schools, and that no parents, or few parents, would consider that the absence of a child from home in a boarding school was to be weighed as over and against the expense of supporting that child at home. Any parent would rather have the child at home than send him away for the sake of merely gaining the cost of his sustenance. So, all over our States, the doors of these schools have been opened to the children of the well-to-do, and even rich, as well as to those who are poor, and in some States it is considered absolutely a portion of the system of public education, and no statement of poverty or inability to pay is required, and that has become the tendency and practice in all parts of the country.

13,250. That is associated with the general free education that prevails in America?—Yes.

13,251. One cannot understand that there should be any reason why the deaf and dumb should be excluded from that?-Yes. The disposition to associate together in a clannish manner of the deaf after leaving school has been made the subject of considerable discussion in our country, and it has been urged that schools should be so organized, if possible, as to prevent this clannish association of the deaf in after-life, with a view to prevent too much intermarriage of the deaf, from the fear that intermarriage of the deaf might increase the amount of deafness in the community, that their children might be more apt to be deaf than other children.

13,252. Have you any statistics to give us showing the effect of the intermarriage of the deaf?— The statistics are far from being complete. Mr. Alexander Graham Bell, who, I believe, has been

invited to give evidence before this Commission, has made, during the last two or three years, quite a study of the matter of the intermarriage of the deaf, and has presented to some of our scientific associations papers in relation to the possibility of the formation by intermarriage of a deaf variety of the human race. If Mr. Bell should appear before you, undoubtedly he would give you a great deal of information on that point. His studies, he admits, up to this time, are incomplete; the data he has had at his command have not been sufficiently numerous to enable him to make a complete statement; but it is a subject which engages the attention of all teachers of the deaf, and they feel it to be important that deaf pupils going out of the institutions should be perfectly aware as to wherein lie the dangers of intermarriage. And, in connection with this, it may be interesting to say that while we have not facts and figures to make a complete statement, we have enough data to show very clearly that the mere fact of one who is totally deaf marrying another who is totally deaf, does not at all suggest that their children are likely to be deaf; for the reason that if the parties have both of them acquired deafness by accident, there is no greater likelihood that their children will be deaf than the children of other persons.

13,253. You are not competent, perhaps, to speak on the question of deafness running in families?I can say that in America there is quite a body of statistics at hand with reference to certain families in which deafness seems to have run, and to have visited, in a considerable number, the members of these families, and it is certain that, wherever there is found, by the presence of more than one deaf person in a family, any evidence of a tendency to deafness, if a person belonging to that family, whether deaf or not, marries a person whether deaf or not belonging to another family in which deafness has run, you find that the children are, in a large proportion of cases, liable to be deaf. It is not the fact of the deafness of the contracting parties; but, if you find a family where there is evidence of a disposition to deafness, and members of that family marry into another family with a similar disposition to deafness, they are very apt to have deaf children; so, these institutions for the deaf, which stand in loco parentis to the pupils, many of them, take great pains to advise the pupils to be very careful, and to exercise a caution which people often do not exercise in regard to marriage, and where they know there is a disposition to deafness in a family to avoid marrying any one belonging to that family.

13,254. Are you aware whether the marriage of first cousins produces deafness?-It is a subject that has received a great deal of attention.

13,255. Perhaps you would refer us to any statistics that are reliable on the subject, if there are any?—I can refer rather to papers and discussions based upon the rather limited area of facts which bear upon the subject.

13,256. We do not desire to go into the details now, but if there are statistics, perhaps you would kindly hand them in in your evidence? Yes. See Topical Index of the American Annals of the Deaf.

13,257. The next point is, what education does the State require in the teachers of the deaf and dumb, and what are the qualifications for the teachers required by the State?-I am sorry to say that we have not in America any normal school, or any examining board with reference to the qualifications of teachers before whom applicants for the position should go and prove their capacity. In each institution it is a matter for the governing body of the institution itself to determine the qualifications of the teachers. The course pursued is usually this: To take into the institution a young person, male or female, who has a sufficient amount of education

and ability to make it probable that he or she will Dr. E. M. succeed as a teacher of the deaf; and then for the Gallaudet. principal of the institution, with the assistance of the teachers who are already experienced, to train 9 Nov. 1886. this young teacher in the art of teaching the deaf. And in this way a body of very capable and experienced teachers has been raised up in America in the different schools. In some institutions there has been pressure to bring them down to small salaries, and that keeps out teachers of the greatest efficiency from these institutions.

13,258. Does that system insure an uniformity of teaching in the schools, or would it not rather tend to produce uniformity of teaching in each particular school rather than throughout the whole of the schools? I think that would be the tendency, although I think that in a country so large as ours, considering our political organization, and that local matters are quite independent of the Federal Government, it would be impossible to establish through the Federal Government any general system of examination. There has been a serious thought of establishing in connection with our college at Washington a training school for teachers, and the establishment of such a school would no doubt be attended with good results; but that is still in the future.

13,259. You have only the judgment and discretion of the governing body to ensure that the teachers are good ones?-Yes, and yet it can be said that the practice has been in America to require that the applicants for positions as teachers should be men and women of very high order of education. A very large proportion of our men teachers of the deaf are, what would be called in England, university men; that is to say, graduates of colleges, men with high attainments; and running back for a series of years, we can point to many men who have gone out from institutions in which they have been teachers of the deaf, and taken positions of the highest eminence in literary and scientific pursuits. I could cite the names of several presidents of colleges who were teachers in institutions for the deaf; and it is an interesting fact that both the candidates in the recent canvass for the highest position in our country, that of the President, Mr. Cleveland, and Mr. Blaine, began life as teachers of the blind. I mention this to show that men of a sort who might be expected to rise to high positions, are often found among the ranks of our teachers.

13,260. Is not that the case in America generally; there is no separate profession, a man begins his life as one thing, and ends it as another?-Yes. It ought to be said in connection with the employment of our teachers, a great object in the organization of our institutions is to secure permanency, and we pay salaries, for example, on which they can marry, and settle, and feel that the work of teaching the deaf is to be their life-work. That has an effect not only in the actual efficiency of the single and given institution, but also it has the tendency to establish, as it were, a profession in which it is possible to have an esprit de corps, and the opportunity for promotion. promotion. Teachers, for instance, look forward to the time when they may be principals, and they feel even if they are not, that they are to be well paid and enabled to live comfortably, and have their families about them; and so they consider that they are entering on a work which is to be their life-work; and experience of course is very valuable from year to year.

13,261. I think you stated that the principals in the ordinary State institutions were appointed by the President?-By the directing body that has been named by the Legislature.

13,262. Not by the President?-No. You understand that we have in our State constitutions a Governor and the members of the Legislature, and

Dr. E. M. those officers are supreme in their own State. The Gallaudet. President has nothing to do with what may be

termed State patronage, only with what may be 9 Nov. 1886. termed Federal patronage. So that in these State institutions the principals and teachers would be appointed by a Board of Directors or Trustees who are constituted by the Act of the Legislature: and when the complexion of the Legislature changes, for instance, from Republican to Democratic, or from Democratic to Republican, it often happens that the Board of Directors or Trustees changes also.

13,263. The principals of these institutions are liable to being changed by these bodies for political reasons?—Yes; and it has happened that when the existing law of the State was such that the removal could not be made of the principal of the institution, the entire existing law has been repealed, and a new law enacted, to enable him to be removed. To such a pass are we come, I am sorry to say. I do not speak of it with anything but mortification. It is a most pernicious system, and the results have been painful. I have seen men put into the office of teacher who had absolutely no knowledge whatever of teaching. The only qualification of one man put at the head of a large institution was that he was a very good dentist.

13,264. What you have said about the teachers is subject therefore to these contingencies which may or may not be prejudicial to the education of the deaf and dumb?—Yes. So that it is true that in many of these institutions governed by the State, the teachers are persons whose claim to be teachers is not a good claim; but in the corporate schools, those whose management is in the hands of a permanent board, the teachers are taken with great

care.

13,265. Are the teachers who are chosen with great care often sent out of other schools for the deaf, or do they often follow a career in the body in which they have been first brought up?-They frequently change their place. If they are paid a certain salary in one school, and have the offer of a much better one in another, and if it is for their advantage to make the change they make it. I have a single note under this head of teachers and their relations to the institutions, to say that we have no arrangements in America in our schools for the deaf for paying our teachers by results. In the education of the deaf it would, in my judgment, be almost impossible to judge of the teacher's efficiency by any scale which could be marked by results, for often a class of deaf children of secondary mental power may have been labored with by the teacher of the utmost devotion and earnestness, and yet the result in marks on any scale that might be applied to all deaf pupils would show comparatively but little progress. That very teacher might be the one who had worked harder than any other in the whole school. So that we have never made any attempt in America to pay our teachers by results, but simply to have that supervision over them by the principal in charge, which would make him satisfied that they are doing the best that can be done.

13,266. I think you have told us, with reference to the conferences, that they have now been in practice for some years, and take place every four years?-We have two bodies of instructors of the deaf meeting in America, one termed the conference of principals, which meets every four years, and the other the convention of instructors, including principals, which also meets every four years. These meetings alternate with each other, so that we have a meeting every two years, one year the conference of principals and the other the convention of instructors; and those meetings have been continued since 1851, with an interregnum during the time of our civil war, when, for a few years, they were suspended. I have brought with me, and I shall leave at the disposition of the Commission, a number of

copies of the proceedings of different conventions and conferences that have been held, in which there is a great amount of material of great value bearing upon the work of instructing the deaf in America. And I cannot speak too favorably of these conferences and of the importance with which they are regarded in our work in America. They bring teachers together. For instance, at this last convention in California, half of the time of the convention was taken up in normal sections; teachers of known capacity and experience were selected to take charge of certain subjects of instruction and to hold meetings of such teachers as were interested in those particular branches of instruction. They interchanged methods and means of instructing from one teacher to another, and so a normal school was carried on for a certain period that was productive of great benefit. And to these conventions the principals of the institutions are generally sent by the governing boards of the institutions and their travelling expenses paid; and in some instances teachers are sent, and their travelling expenses paid. The conventions themselves and the conferences are usually held in some institution during the vacation, and the institution which invites them entertains the members of the convention during its period. For example, the California institu3,000 dollars in entertaining this convention that tion, by a vote of the Legislature, expended about was held last July, continuing a little over a week.

13,267. It comes out of the funds of the State, then?--Yes, or of the institution; but the travelling expenses of the members may be paid for each one by the institution which sends them; but the institution which entertains the convention meets the expense of boarding it, and of publishing the proceedings. It is considered by the managers of our institutions that the presence of such a meeting, such a body of teachers of the deaf, is of value to the State where it is held in influencing public opinion, in increasing interest in the work of teaching the deaf, and in disseminating knowledge as to what it is; and so institutions are found every two years that are quite willing to bear the expense of entertaining these conferences and conventions.

13,268. Then it is rather through conferences such as these that you would get uniformity of teaching in America than in any other way?-The tendency is very strongly not towards absolute uniformity but harmony of action, which we feel is better than absolute uniformity. Different teachers have very different opinions as to the methods that come out in these conventions, and they find that those with whom they differ have a good many things that they are glad to learn; and so there comes about a harmony of action and a good feeling among the different teachers in the deaf schools all over the country, that we think is very much better than absolute uniformity.

13,269. Do these conferences generally end in the passing of certain resolutions?-Very rarely. It is not sought to pass resolutions which should bind the sentiments or practice of the members of the convention.

13,270. Papers are read?-And discussions had, and methods brought forward and their importance heard; but the resolutions which I presented here were almost the only resolutions of that character. Of course there are complimentary resolutions passed, but the practice of our conventions is not to attempt to bind the members to any particular course or particular method. The convention, as I mentioned a little while ago, has a standing executive committee, and under that committee is published a publication known as the American Annals, a quarterly publication which has been published for many years. I have a set of the Annals here. I have brought it over for purposes of reference, and I have a good many citations noted

in my notes from the Annals which would be of value perhaps to the Commission. That concludes the ninth point upon which you are asking questions. If you were prepared to pass on to the tenth point I should have something further to say with regard to these publications.

13,271. Are the periodicals which are published in the interest of the deaf and dumb under the control and under the guidance of these conventions, or are there any other independent ones?-There are other independent periodicals published in the interest of the deaf themselves and for their instruction and general entertainment; that is to say, there are newspapers published for them; but the only publication which is in the interest of the education of the deaf is this of the Annals, which has run now through a period of 31 years. I have here an index to those Annals, the whole set of volumes, which has been prepared at considerable expense and with great care, so that any one looking over this index can refer to this series of publications in a very easy manner. Any topic upon which it is desired to get information and on which information exists in the Annals, can be found by reference to this index. And I should like to say, that this publication is sustained in a manner somewhat peculiar. It is not a publication which merely depends upon the subscription of those who may desire to have it and read it, but from a very early point in the history of its publication this method has been pursued and found to be successful. The institutions were asked by the standing executive committee to contribute in proportion to the number of pupils in their respective schools to the support of this periodical, and an assessment has been made by the committee of certain sums upon the different institutions, which in general has been accepted. Of course these assessments were not at all compulsory, merely voluntary, but they have been so generally accepted that it has been possible to publish the Annals on a liberal scale, to pay an editor to take charge of it, and to pay contributors for articles contributed, which has stimulated teachers and others to write for the Annals in a way which has made it a periodical of increasing value. The assessments have been paid out of the general funds of the various schools of the country by vote of their respective boards of direction, and the money has been disbursed under the direction of the standing committee, and accounted for to the conventions as they have met from time to time. I am very pleased to be able, through the assistance and courtesy of the New York Institution for the Deaf, and by the co-operation of Dr. Isaac Lewis Peet, who is at the head of it, and who succeeded his father, who was for many years at the head of the institution, to present in the name of the New York Institution, and of the Institution of Washington to the Commission this complete set of the Annals which I have brought with me as a matter of reference. It consists of 31 volumes, and with this index it is now a little difficult to get in a complete form; and if the Commission will accept it from these two institutions in America, it will give the managers of the institutions great pleasure, I am sure. It may serve as a library for the Commission to delve in for themselves and to get information from, which may perhaps be helpful as the work of the Commission goes on; for these Annals speak of the education of the deaf not only in America but all over the world, and this may be said to be a mine of information which can serve many purposes.

13,272. I am sure the Royal Commission are most sensible of the kindness which has prompted the giving of so handsome a present to the Commission, and it will be most valuable for our labors. The Secretary will write officially and thank the institutions which have so kindly furnished the volumes; and we thank you for the way in which you

have presented them to the Royal Commission?-I Dr. E. M. also present a couple of. volumes relating to the Gallaudet. work of the Columbia Institution at Washington. That is the corporate name of the institution which 9 Nov. 1886. includes both the college and the primary school. They are the official reports to Congress of the institution during a period of 25 years. Under the matter of periodicals published in the interest of the education of the deaf, I ought, perhaps, to say a word with reference to papers published by different institutions. Where printing offices are in existence, it is quite the custom for the institutions to publish each of them a little paper, larger or smaller according to circumstances, in which there is much of interest in reference to the teaching of their pupils, and which serves to interest parents and the people generally of the State where the institution exists.

13,273. You mean a sort of school magazine?Yes, a sort of school magazine; and then there are one or two other papers that are published in the interest of the deaf quite independently of any institution. I have brought with me two or three copies that might be looked over at the convenience of members of the Commission. Perhaps the particular interest in these copies would be that they contain accounts of two or three conventions of the deaf themselves that were held this last summer, associations which were organized by the alumni of the respective State schools. They meet from time to time. They have benevolent contributions sometimes, and they raise money for certain purposes of a charitable nature; and in the proceedings of these meetings will be found papers presented by the deaf themselves, addresses made which have been reported, which would be interesting as showing the point of intelligence which they reach after they leave the various schools of the country and the college. I have also copies of the American Manual Alphabet, which is not of much use in England, but which has been prepared to assist parents of the deaf by Professor Gordon, of the college at Washington.

13,274. Is the one-handed alphabet considered advantageous ?-We prefer it in America very much; but that is a question, of course, whether it is better than the two-handed or not; we think it is. And, in connection with the alphabet, I have cited in my notes a paper presented to the convention at California by an instructor of the deaf, urging the teaching of the manual alphabet in all schools, so that all the children in the country may know the manual alphabet, and be able to converse that way with deaf mutes when other means fail, and when the lips are not perfect enough for oral communication to fall back upon that; and this paper was well received. (Annals, Vol. XXXI, p. 233.) It happens that when I was in Geneva lately, the American consul told me that three or four years ago he was extremely ill with an attack of hemorrhage of the lungs; his physician absolutely forbade him to speak or even to exert himself to write; but having learnt the manual alphabet, and it being known by members of his family, he communicated with them with ease, without making any exertion which might bring on any possible return of the hemorrhage; and he was quite ready to advocate the teaching of the manual alphabet.

13,275. I see in one of the books mention of a Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Phonological Institute; is that different from any other institution?-It is an oral school; it is only another name for it, that is all. I did not call attention just now, when speaking of the college at Washington, to the fact that we have 100 acres, which land lies within two miles of the National Capitol building itself. Though we hold it now, we may not think it necessary to hold it for all time, the whole of it; but if the time should come when the city should extend out around it, a part of it might be sold and a very ample portion

Dr. E. M. still remain, and, from the proceeds of the portion Gallaudet. sold, might be formed an endowment for the institution. We carry on a farm here (pointing to a 9 Nov. 1886. picture), and an orchard, and have our own dairy, and raise quite enough to feed a large number of dairy cows.

13,276. Can you tell us anything with regard to any of the Canadian institutions of the deaf and dumb; have you any special knowledge of them?-The list of Canadian institutions is included in the Annals of last January, but beyond that I am not able to give any very definite information, excepting that I may say this, that I know that they are mainly upon the combined system-institutions which accept instruction in speech and give it to as large a number of their pupils as possible.

13,277. You do not think that there is any substantial difference in the teaching in the Canadian institutions?—No; but in the management there is. For instance, the management of the Ontario Institution is in the hands of an inspector or a government official who controls quite a number of public institutions; there is no board of directors; it is under the control of an inspector who, with the approval of a body representing the Government, appoints the principal and subordinate officers. The Mackay Institution at Montreal, I believe, is a corporation.

13,278. (Dr. Campbell.) Is the inspector of that institution at Ontario a superintendent of general

education?-I do not think he is.

13,279. (Chairman.) Do you think that if a paper of questions was sent round by this Commission to the different institutions for the deaf and dumb in the United States, the managers of those institutions would be willing to furnish any replies to those questions for the use of the Commission? I only ask the question in case we should wish to supplement the information which you have already given us?—I have no doubt the majority of them would be quite willing to go through a great deal of trouble and pains to answer such questions. We are in the habit of answering such questions in our own country; for instance, to our department of education which exists at Washington. That sends round circulars which ask a good many questions which we grumble over a little, but always answer.

13,280. Is the inspection in each State carried out by an inspector-general of the educational institutions, or is there a special inspector for the deaf and dumb?-The practice differs very widely in that respect. There are some of the States in which there have been appointed these commissioners of public charities in general, and they inspect and visit and report upon the schools for the deaf as well as a number of other benevolent establishments; but the practice is not uniform throughout the country at all. I think, in general, the management of the institution is left very much to the local organization which governs it, and then it is subject to the determination which may be made from time to time

by a legislative committee, or in some of the States the governor takes pains to visit (in some he is required to visit) and report upon the condition of schools for the deaf.

13,281. Have you any deaf and dumb and blind in any of your institutions?-We have quite a number in America scattered through the country.

13,282. Do the deaf and dumb and blind generally go to the blind institutions or to the deaf and dumb institutions?-I think generally to the deaf and dumb institutions.

13,283. I ask that question because Mr. Hall says "We have three deaf and dumb and blind in my institution"?-That would indicate that certainly some are found in blind schools. I think for purposes of education; on reflection I remember a blind deafmute who is in the blind institution in Maryland. There must be some of that class of persons in the blind schools. Of course, I am not able to answer with regard to that. I know that there are a number in the deaf-mute schools. There are one or two in New York and in some of the other schools.

13,284. Do you think it is advantageous at all that the deaf and dumb and blind should be associated together in any industrial works; for instance, we have had occasion sometimes to see a deaf and dumb person employed in the institutions for the blind; that is to say, to give sighted superintendhave you any experience of that?--I have no expeence where sighted superintendence is necessary; rience of that sort of employment or mingling of the two classes. I can see no reason why in certain circumstances it might not be of some help, but not I think for the benefit of the deaf, but perhaps for the assistance of the blind.

13,285. In your opinion the deaf and dumb are able to earn their livelihood without being included in any blind institutions?—Yes; I do not think it is necessary to establish special places where the deaf and dumb may be helped to earn their living. I think they can earn their living side by side with the hearing.

13,286. Do any of the deaf and dumb institutions give any grants for the apprenticing out of young men, or is that generally done by the parents and friends? It is generally done by the parents and friends. I cannot say with certainty that there are any that make a practice of doing that. I think there have been some that have had funds at their disposal perhaps for a short time, which have enabled them to help a certain number in that way, but the practice being so general in the schools in America of teaching industrial work while the pupil is in school, it would not be natural that they should make arrangements for having these grants to apprentice their pupils to masters when they go out.

13,287. In fact, they are generally turned out of school with sufficient knowledge of some trade which they can practice in after-life?—That is the rule.